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Fuck Facebook and NFT.
WE are the real Metaverse. WE are the actual Web3.0. WE are open, decentralized, empowering, not THEM.

The world hasn't seen a network quite like Fediverse. Such networks need a name and a definition, and they STOLE it from us. They played you like a goddamn fiddle.

I stand by this type of entities needing a definition because eventually, we will have to move on. Something like Fediverse but better will emerge, maybe with different protocol, maybe with different federation principle (ask @cwebber about their work on CapTP or @mike about what he does with Zot), but inevitably so. It will be similar in decentralization, opennes and empowerment, but it won't be The Fediverse, it will be something else, albeit from the same family of networks.

@cwebber by the way. Where is Evan? Has he long forgotten us?

@mike

@drq this network has a ton of inherent problems that will always limit its viability to the broader public

@Moon And facebook is literally fucking evil and insidious.

Thanks, I'll keep my problems if solving them entails losing semblance of basic human decency, and/or slowly killing most of the planet.

@drq I don't think either of us thinks Facebook is a viable option.

Have a good Christmas!

@drq
>The world hasn't seen a network quite like Fediverse.

But it has seen very similar ones, eg. SMTP and XMPP.

You can call it Web 3.0 if youbwant but we're merely getting back to where we were in the 90s.

Since most of the web has been regressing towards mainframe age during the last decade, you could call this a success. But we have ways to go.

@wolf480pl xmpp is homogenous. No node is different in function and presentation from another node. Fediverse is WILDLY heterogenous. Those are on completely different levels.

@wolf480pl
Samr goes for e-mail. All mail servers are ideally the same.

@wolf480pl
Heterogenous meaning everybody is free and even encouraged to do shit their own way, as long as they stay compatible. So we have microblogging, full-service social networks (Friendica), videohostigs and streaming services, photohostings, social playlist sharing services (Funkwhale), soon there will be social reading engine, there's already a game of fucking chess (castling.club), you name it.

@wolf480pl anyway, that's why Fediverse is different and why it's first of its kind.

@drq XMPP isn't all that homogenous - the core protocol may be the same for everyone, but different servers implement different sets of extensions, and then there are components like MUC, gateways to other protocols, HTTP upload, videobridges, etc., each of which does something different, and different implementations of each of those vary noticeably too.

There is also some variety across clients. Not as much as in case of Fedi - AFAIK Movim is the only one which tried doing a non-IM UI.

@wolf480pl For XMPP, trying to get heterogenous is more of a hinderance, because it's not explicit and just introduces mess without any real benefits. XMPP is better when everyoune is on the same page as to what extensions we support and what we don't, which client we use, which supports the extensions we use, etc.

@wolf480pl If we start switching XMPP extensions on and off, the whole becomes less than the sum of its parts. Not so with the Fediverse.

@drq
Yeah, it certainly feels like this.
But why is that so?
What is it that we don't like about XMPP heterogenity?
Well, it's not quite compatible.

Unless you specifically choose a client and server that work well together, nothing but a basic text chat will work reliably. Any fancy stuff tends to be incompatible.

But then, is fediverse any better? What kinda user experience do you get when viewing a peertube video in Mastodon, other reading and replying with basic text?

@drq Heck, there are incompatibilities even across different implementations of microblogging. Pleroma has a bunch of features that look like garbage when viewed with Mastodon. Mastodon's reply-on-home-TL-visibility semantics aren't expressed well in the APub objects, so you'd have to copy its heuristics to display it in the same way on any other server, even when using the same client.

@drq And then there's Misskey with its quote-replies.

@wolf480pl But still, _somehow_ it all works way better than if we tried to implement the same stuff via XMPP

@drq yeah.

Fediverse is no doubt a significant improvement in terms of UX, and is a big change in the social aspect - it has wider adoption, unique subcultures, people actually use it instead of idling, etc.

What I'm saying is, it's not a new invention technology-wise. It just a slightly better execution of existing inventions that happened to become popular.

@wolf480pl Isn't every new invention a slightly better executed and transformed sum of existing inventions?

Everything is a remix.

@drq imagine a world where microwave ovens are only used industrially. If I start making smaller microwaves made of cheaper parts and selling them to individual customers for household use, is that an invention?

@wolf480pl Not a breakthrough, maybe, but invention nontheless. Cost-optimization is very not easy.

@wolf480pl However, in the context of our talk it's not a very relevant comparison.

@drq hmm yeah, so in a similar way, I think fediverse is not a breakthrough. What it does was known to be possible for two decades, but nobody before figured out how to make it accessible to the masses.

@wolf480pl

> What it does was known to be possible for two decades

Not before the invention of Ostatus. Which is yeah, 13 years old. The Fediverse is older than you probably know.

> but nobody before figured out how to make it accessible to the masses.

Well?..

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@drq well IMO it isn't. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of invention.

@drq
I guess Fediverse has two saving graces here:
- It tends to gracefully degrade. Things may look like garbage, but in most cases they don't get silently dropped.
- You can usually click the link and view the post on its authoritative server, where it'll look as intended. Assuming it's public.

@drq but yeah, even though it'd be technically possible to make an XMPP client with a playlist sharing, news aggregator, or microblogging UI, we don't see many of those created.

@wolf480pl @drq Defs agree here, XMPP is super diverse. Login to a few servers and see what XEPs the service exports to you and how it differs.
@wolf480pl @drq Not to mention that XMPP many different uses. Movim is a highly creative use of it!

@deavmi
> Login to a few servers and see what XEPs the service exports to you and how it differs.

Again, it _may_ differ. But it gains nothing to the network as a whole, and just introduces complications.

@wolf480pl

@drq @wolf480pl I think the main problem experienced with XMPP was a lack of a core set of XEPs implemented, but the ones I am referring to were definately extras (like the other guy said, videobridges) or Biboumi and Bitlbee shits

@deavmi @drq
Imagine you implemented a reddit clone on top of XMPP. Would it benefit from federating with the rest of the network? Would existing XMPP clients be able to interact with it in a meaningful way?

@wolf480pl @drq It can definately. There may be more instances. I mean that is the ppint of XMPP, it's a generalised communications layer for certain systems that need a way to address a user in a meaninful way (examples resources), having authentication (ACL), etc.

@drq @wolf480pl Indeed, I think of federating phone systems...which looks nothing like a mastadon or a friendica.

@wolf480pl Neither SMTP nor XMPP are web protocols. Federated networks aren't new, but the federated social web is.

@drq

@strypey @drq IOW, we've took federated social networks and reinvented them over HTTPS. Also, considering that you could put links in emails, and that you could link to emails that were on a public mailing list archive, I think email has long been a federated hypertext social network.

Using HTTPS as a transport and browser-JS as UI doesn't fundamentally change what a federated social network is.

@strypey @wolf480pl @drq what exactly is "new", then? I had an active account on StatusNet-based identi.ca over a decade ago.

@rysiek
New is relative. XMPP is about 20 years old. SMTP at least 30.

@wolf480pl @drq

@rysiek @drq @wolf480pl @strypey what is new is that federated networks have probably reached critical mass to became attractive to average people

@miklo @drq @wolf480pl @strypey yeah, fair. And UI/UX improvements.

Usability of, say, Mastodon is leaps and bounds better than usability of StatusNet was a decade ago.

@strypey there have been simple versions of distributed and federated social networks on the web. Things like FOAF and webrings may not have had all the features of modern federation, but they were still a form of agreement-based federated social network. One could even argue RSS/Atom syndication produced a degree of web federation. @wolf480pl @drq @alcinnz

@drq До Феди был ещё фидонет, у них много общего, как мне кажется.

@lonelyowl да, был. Но все же он тоже был немножечко другой.

@drq ну, да, как говорится, "ничто не воробей кроме воробья".

@uu совершенно верно. Но эволюция это процесс. Я ищу определение ее продукта конкретно в этом направлении.

@cwebber @mike

@drq @mike He hasn't forgotten us but put off joining the activitypub space because he wanted to run his own tech on it, and then didn't have time, and I think then it kind of felt awkward for him, but he's meant to join. You know what, I'm finally gonna shoot him an invite for this instance, he should be on here already :)

@cwebber YES. I get the pride of rolling your own from start to finish, but what he did already earned him a lifetime achievement award, all the laurels and candy in the world and an

"I invented this
:fedipx:
You are f**king welcome"

t-shirt. He NEEDS to see and experience and take part in what his work from 13 years ago started. Meanwhile he still can code his own engine.

@mike

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